Alexander Danner
The following was recorded live at PodTales on October 20th, 2019, using hurriedly improvised recording equipment. The sound quality isn’t great, but we hope you’ll enjoy it anyway.
Today we present an interview with Sophie Kaner, co-creator, director, and sound designer for The Penumbra Podcast. Sophie sat for a live discussion with The Call of Cthulhu Mystery Program’s Cap Blackard.
Audience Member
Perfect.
Cap Blackard
So we got the Z in the bag.
Audience Member
Great. It’s looking good.
Sophie Kaner
Yay.
Cap Blackard
Thank you so much. Hello, folks. I’m Kap Blackard, of The Call of Cthulu Mystery Program, and today we’re gonna be talking with Sophie Kaner, of The Penumbra Podcast.
Sophie Kaner
Does anyone want like come, I mean you don’t have to, but there are so few people-
Cap Blackard
We should get-
Sophie Kaner
Just come hang out-
Cap Blackard
Um, they’re co-creative director and sound designer of the show. And I want to take a read how, many people are familiar with Penumbra?
Sophie Kaner
Oh thank God.
Cap Blackard
Everyone knows what’s up. This is perfect.
Sophie Kaner
I don’t know why else they would come to this.
Cap Blackard
You never know, you never know.
Sophie Kaner
Some random person…
Cap Blackard
I’ll do like a panel on like Ninja Turtles or something and I’ll be like, how many people have like read a Ninja Turtles comic book?
Sophie Kaner
What is a Nina Turtle?
Cap Blackard
Nobody raises their hand. So Penumbra is an anthology show of a kind, or, how do you, what do you just use to describe Penumbra ypically?
Sophie Kaner
That’s a good question. I try not to. Well, because the problem with it is that we didn’t know what it was going to end up being when we started, right. So like when we started we intended it for to be like the Twilight Zone or like Black Mirror. And so it was supposed to be an anthology with a different story every time; except that, so that the first the first one we actually wrote was Shaken. If everyone has listened to that. That’s like our first horror one. And then we did Home, which was also horror, which was like police later, but then the next one, we decided to do noir, and at the very last minute, Kevin was like, also on Mars. And that’s sort of how Juno Steel came to be.
Cap Blackard
Wow. Okay, so that’s wild. So-
Sophie Kaner
Oh, yes.
Cap Blackard
So in the writing process, there’s a lot I mean, there’s a lot of- How, was it always science fiction and then it was on Mars? Or like did, was all that flavor added in? I mean, at what point? Okay– explain.
Sophie Kaner
It was it was before before the drafting actually began, that that decision was made, but it was like we had I mean, the place that Juno Steel comes from is you know, talking about how much we’d noir detectives, but they’re always straight because everybody’s always straight. And I mean, this is, in a way a little bit more Kevin’s story than mine because at the time that we started coming up with that idea just for ourselves, he had, he was like just coming out as bi. And so we were like, oh, let’s make the detective bi. And then I was like, Oh, and if he’s bi then instead of a femme fatale of an homme fatal, which is where we got Nureyev from. But yeah, so like, as soon as we started writing that one, that script ended up being longer, that’s how became a two part story, which is now why all the Juno Steel stories are like two parts, unless they’re three parts. And then we were like, oh, but we want to come back to that character. So then we like did another short story. And then we’re like, Okay, and then we’ll do another Juno Steel. And then what we realized is that it’s so hard to do an anthology series, because you have to, like, get people invested in an entire entirely new set of characters.
Cap Blackard
Yeah.
Sophie Kaner
And like, setting every time and you have to, like, come up with something brand new every time and you don’t have much space for character development.
Cap Blackard
And marketing so difficult at that point as well, like finding, finding the audience.
Sophie Kaner
Yeah.
Cap Blackard
I do an anthology the show. But it’s still like everyone knows consistently no matter what happens, it’s going to be the same world.
Sophie Kaner
Right.
Cap Blackard
And that’s, that’ll happen. But I mean, at this point, you have both a science fiction show and a fantasy show.
Sophie Kaner
Yes.
Cap Blackard
And I’m really curious about that dichotomy and how and how the show has evolved with the feed itself called into what it is today.
Sophie Kaner
Yeah. That’s a good question. So like, by the time we were finishing up the first season, we were starting to think of the, the one shots, kind of as pilots for another series. So we were like, okay, we know we’re gonna stick with Juno Steel. And I don’t think we can keep doing this as an anthology. So we’ll write new stories. And then when we feel like one really catches, we’ll just stick with that. And we had another option that we were, we had a couple of other options for series that we were going to try. One was going to be sort of like a monster of the week kind of thing with a little girl and her butler who was like a genie. And they had, like, she had this family history of, like saving endangered like magical creatures. But like, and her mother ran it, but her mother was mysteriously missing. So it was like her and her Butler like going around in there, like you would hear about a mythical creature and they’d be like, Oh, we have to like save them from the situation. So that was like one option and then another option, which we’ve recorded that and then I was like, I hate it. Actually, I never sound designed that and then another option early option, which we also recorded and I started to sound design, well I hated that too, was about these two sisters. Like almost adult but orphan sisters who lived in the city that was like always nighttime, I think. And there’s gonna be like they would encounter ghosts like dead Duked played by Noah Simes, of course. And then we sort of ended up like taking bits and pieces from that, but that didn’t stick either.
Cap Blackard
From your end, is it working? I mean, yeah,
Sophie Kaner
And then the thing that did stick was our first Second Citadel episode, which started out I think I was like, you know, okay, what if we did knights but like, what if, what if a knight was disabled? Like what would that look like? And then, in order to like functionally make that work, we were like, Okay, well, maybe he needs somebody has to be with him. So that’s his brother. So there are these two adventuring knights and like, you know, they fight monsters. And then we were like, oh, we’re really into this universe and that was pretty natural to build out because you can add more knights and more monsters and sort of smaller characters that we introduced in the first episode ended up getting built out. And then we just kind of stuck with that and so now what we do is alternate between the two which is so like weird. It’s such a weird– Yeah, like it works. I mean, especially because like with casting and scheduling and stuff like that, it wouldn’t really be possible to just continuously do Juno Steel. And so we kind of need that, like, we need to alternate in that way. And, but also, as it has developed, they have become, I think, more complimentary to each other in design because, you know, in the Juno-verse, like we have a queer utopia but it’s a capitalist dystopia. And in one of the things that people would sometimes say was like you know, we we love seeing a world where you know queerness is fine and no one questions it, but also we queer people in the real world like struggle with it a lot and sometimes we we do want to see that, like sometimes that is validating to see so the Second Citadel became a place right isn’t exactly like it is in our world but, but it’s a much bigger problem for people who live in that world to be queer.
Cap Blackard
Well, I was really, I found Damien’s struggle with his sudden onslaught of feelings towards that violent eyed guy like that was that was just very compellingly done and his anxiousness and uncertainty about feeling those feelings, it’s it’s fun, it’s good and if we lived a world where queerness was the norm, then he wouldn’t have really any questions about that.
Sophie Kaner
Right. And like, we sort of like, dovetailed it together like his feelings about like, Oh no, I’m into monsters like but like male monsters. So it’s like it’s a you know attraction to monsters as metaphor for queerness, but also queerness at the same time.
Cap Blackard
Yeah,
Sophie Kaner
Literally. No.
Cap Blackard
So um, I’ve, just for full disclosure, I’ve listened to a cherry picked collection of Penumbra, I think so there’s a lot of content and I’m I’m now that I’ve–
Sophie Kaner
I know there’s so much…
Cap Blackard
Gotten this, well, don’t ever ever apologize for that, like. You’re right. I never will again. Yeah okay. It’s such a it’s such a wide scope of material and now that I’ve like seen like both where it begins and where it’s going, I’m really excited to fill in the middle bits. But I’ve noticed that it seems like you have a pretty steady reoccurring cast of players.
Sophie Kaner
Yes.
Cap Blackard
So can we talk about that where your cast comes from?
Yes! Thank you for asking. Yeah, casting is so hard. And one thing that’s very hard about it is that I pretty much entirely insist on working with people in person. And I think that sometimes in some audio dramas like people work remotely more, which makes it a lot easier because you can cast a very wide net, you can just go online and be like, who wants to be in the show? But I come from a theatre background, it’s really important to me to work with people in person, it’s really important to me to have in person rehearsals to have people like build up character dynamics and chemistry in person. And sometimes that has to be sacrificed. I mean, at this point, we have an established cast. And so we have to abide by their schedule, and sometimes people can’t make it in at the same time, and we have to splice it together, but but usually I only let that happen when like, they’ve already established their rapport so they know what they’re doing.
Cap Blackard
Yeah.
Sophie Kaner
So like, the the original, like the bones of the cast comes from UMass. I mean, I went to UMass and I was in the UMass Theatre Guild. And my co-creator Kevin was not we were in the English major together and we were in like creative writing classes together. Bu t like all of my other friends were from theater. And so when Kevin and I started writing it, I was like, oh, I’ll just grab, you know, some of my friends who are still in the area from school. So that is, that’s Joshua, Yuan, and Kate Jones and Noah Simes. And Jason Mellon who plays Talfryn and the Prince of Mars and Stephano Perti who plays Mick Mercury. And so so those people are like, school friends and people that I acted with in the past. And then like, a lot of times, we would sort of like build roles around them. And then I would start to pull from like, productions I had been in after college and then after that, then we were like, oh shit we like really need so many more people. So now we largely pulled from the Boston theater scene. And luckily, Noah is very active in the theater scene in the area. And so like he brings in a lot of people to audition. For me. Casting is very, very hard though, because like, I want voices thatare very distinct from one another because, like–
Cap Blackard
Critically important.
Sophie Kaner
Yeah, one of the toughest things in audio drama. I mean, how many times have you listen to something you’re like, I don’t know, they all sound the same. Like you can’t tell people apart. And I never wanted that to happen. So like I wanted to, for every single voice, I wanted to, like, really create a very distinct sound that you could not mistake for anyone else. And like sometimes it still happens, I think. But, you know, I try to think very carefully about it like, Okay, if I have two women with the same register of voice, somebody has to have an accent, like there has to or like a very distinctive way of speaking that you can really tell apart. So that’s very challenging. You run into a lot of, like interesting issues surrounding casting for race and for gender, and–
What issues specifically if you?
Sophie Kaner
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It yeah, it can be really challenging. I mean, especially because when we started writing the show, we didn’t have like races in mind really, for any of the characters. And I think, that can be the case for a lot of audio dramas because you don’t see them. And especially because the Juno-verse takes place in the very far future and Second Citadel, it all takes place in a whole, like other fantasy world. Who says like races really are the way that we think of them as being and certainly we always imagined that in the Juno-verse, it would be far enough in the future that races would be much less distinct, like people would just sort of in general the mixed and so but we cast the people first. So, then we thought about that later. And then we definitely I don’t know, like how aware everybody is of this, but we definitely like random to major issues when we started creating art for the podcast, right? Because, you know, we, like I pulled like my originals, you know, the bones of the cast was like just people from school and UMass is very white. In fact, I think maybe the whole time I was at UMass, in the Theatre Guild, which was just like a student run program. It’s not like, through the school itself. It’s totally student run. There were like, maybe like three or four people of color, like, in the whole thing ever, you know? Yeah. And like, and UMass itself, in general is very white. And then the Theatre Guild was very white and the theater scene is very white. And so like, that was sort of those were the people I started with, and then we we’ve I mean, it’s been really challenging, like, because we took on an artist and she designed a lot of the characters without ever having seen the actors. And so like, I think probably everyone knows, like, if you look at the official art and now at the fan art, Juno is always portrayed as black and Nureyev is Asian, and the actors aren’t. And especially if you come to the show later, and you don’t know that it can be really upsetting to people, I think, you know, if you look–
Cap Blackard
So it gets perceived as erasure?
Sophie Kaner
Yeah, yeah. Like people will come to the show later, and they’ll be like, I’m sorry, you wrote a character of color, and you cast them with white actors. Like, that’s so messed up, right?
Cap Blackard
That’s very difficult. Yes.
Sophie Kaner
And I obviously would never do it in that direction. But then I would look at it the other way. And I would be like, if I were to do it again, what would I do? Like just make all the characters white? I don’t, I don’t really want to,I don’t want to do that. And like, as a person of color, I don’t want to do that, you know? And like, I play multiple characters on the show and like, okay, so I’m I’m mixed race, so, do all of the characters that I play on the show have to be mixed race? And like the same races that that I, you know?
Cap Blackard
That’s a pretty large discussion that I think is like, bubbling under the surface, in a lot of a lot of audio drama. Like there’s some, there’s a guy named Chris Spivey who did this incredible supplement for the Call of Cthulhu called Harlem Unbound. And it’s like a claim for exploring racism in the 1920s, and like the black experience in New York City. And it’s just, I mean, it’s really an incredible history book, in addition to having unknowable horror tied into it, but he knows that the large, you know, generally, the tabletop role playing community are largely white males. And in role playing, you’re always going to wear someone else’s skin. And as a black man, he feels like no, this is I, I want you to read my book, and I want you to understand this experience, and I want you to live this experience because you’re gonna learn from it. And then it’s a bit different because it’s, it’s role playing, acting of course is, you know, like high functioning role playing, but then you’re marketing it so it gets complicated–
Sophie Kaner
It’s really complicated.
Cap Blackard
I think at the end of the day like our stories, they need to get told the way they’re going to be told. And like the politics of it all are very important. As long as as long as everything we’re doing is mindful.
Sophie Kaner
Yes.
Cap Blackard
I think like, can’t please everybody, but the very least we can fall back on on the fact that, you know, we’re, we’re aware, and we’re mindful of it.
Sophie Kaner
Yes. And like I’m certainly more aware of that than I was when I started. Yeah. And of course, when I started, like, we didn’t mean for it to be podcast, we were like, let’s do a thing in our living room.
Cap Blackard
Yeah. We can we talk about them if we divert too much, but can we talk about the origins of it? your experience with audio dramas prior to creating Penumbra?
Sophie Kaner
Oh my god, like, almost zero, like, we were like, we probably are the first ever fiction podcast, I’m sure. Like, that was how we went into this?
Cap Blackard
What about the medium of audio storytelling at large?
Sophie Kaner
So that was kind of our inspiration, because we this was like, I guess, October of 2015, probably? Is that Kevin and I were like listening to old, like, radio horror.
Cap Blackard
Yeah.
Sophie Kaner
And we were like, Oh, we can, let’s write one, you know, and I’ll like, invite my friends over and we’ll just like, really, let’s just record it. Like just for fun, and then we’re like, well, we have it recorded let’s just put sound effects in. Very badly. I mean, it’s hard because like, the whole feed is still there and like, I go back and we listen to Shaken and I’m like, so mortified because it was the first time I ever like touched anything like that, you know? So like, that’s the whole Penumbra is like whole experience, sound design and like, all my whole journey.
Cap Blackard
As an artist, I know what it’s like to pick apart your own material, but having listened to Shaken, in ain’t that bad, come on.
Sophie Kaner
Thanks you!
Cap Blackard
Like, yes. Does it get stepped up? It absolutely gets stepped up. But like, you know–
Sophie Kaner
Thank you!
Cap Blackard
No, it’s you’re fine.
Sophie Kaner
I think the writing was very good. And that’s to Kevin’s credit. But But yeah, like, you can hear my whole my whole learning experience as a sound designer, like on the Penumbra feed. And so it’s very funny, like I, at a certain point, like I don’t even try very hard to sell it to new listeners. It does kind of, I think we’re very lucky in that it kinda spreads itself, like listeners will tell other listeners. But, like, if I tell a friend, I’m like, you don’t have, because they need to start at the beginning and like it’s just, and you’re not going to get invested until like five episodes in. So like I actually have trouble selling it to people for the first time because like, I’m very, very proud of what we’re doing now.
Cap Blackard
Yeah
Sophie Kaner
But it took a really long time to get there. You know?
Cap Blackard
I too have a show that starts with the thing that I don’t love as much as it is now. And it’s Boy, that’s just that’s just, audio dramas for you.
Sophie Kaner
Yeah, you just have to live with it. Like your whole artistic history.
Cap Blackard
Or you have to just remaster it.
Sophie Kaner
You know, as is the case, yes. I mean, that helped a little bit to be able to go back and be like, Hey, we’re a little better now. But yeah, now that can be it can be embarrassing to look back and like, sometimes ethically, it can be embarrassing to look back at if you look at like the Prince of Mars and like, would I now write something where like, a male or a masculine person like forcibly kisses a woman? Like never! I would not do that.
Cap Blackard
I was really surprised by that.
Sophie Kaner
Yeah, I know, it’s like, I mean, especially like, especially because that has become a conversation very much like, everyone right now, which is fantastic. And I think that even if it hadn’t, I probably eventually would have come to be like, ehhh. But like, you know, I’m not gonna sit here and like blame Kevin for writing that, like, I was totally on board.
Cap Blackard
It’s very of the genre.
Sophie Kaner
Yeah, I mean, and the reason, there’s a reason we did it and the reason was because we needed to demonstrate that you know, was bi in a hurry.
Audience Member
That makes sense,
Sophie Kaner
You know, and like you don’t you don’t have time–
Cap Blackard
I was also surprised by that. I was like, oh, kissing on a lady? Interesting. The plot thickens!
Sophie Kaner
Right because if you listen to the first one, you think he’s gay. And so we wanted to immediately establish the fact that he was buying make that very clear, but you don’t have time to like, develop a whole relationship–
Cap Blackard
So aggressively bi
Sophie Kaner
Right, he’s very horny. Haha, my take on Juno is like, he’s very horny and like, hates that. Like, he doesn’t enjoy any part of that, but it just like is how he is. Yeah, so like, I, I hate that that’s part of it, but it is part of it and I can’t take it back. And it’s like part of how those characters are established and we can’t go back and remaster every episode. Um, so like, I just have to, I just have to accept it. Like, that’s an interesting thing about having an ongoing show. It’s like, even if I don’t currently stand by the things that I started with, like, it was me. You know, like, I have to say, Yeah, I did that. And like, I totally understand if it makes you uncomfortable. It makes me uncomfortable. But like–
Cap Blackard
I mean, yeah, like, you know, if he’d say running a talk podcast for a decade.
Sophie Kaner
Oh, sure.
Cap Blackard
As I have like, I don’t know what’s back there. And I don’t want to know, about that. But like it’s there. And whenever it happened.
Sophie Kaner
Yeah. Because like we change which is good.
Cap Blackard
Yes, exactly. change is constant.
Sophie Kaner
Yeah, and I appreciate that people yell at me too much about it.
Cap Blackard
That is good. So you do the vocal direction?
Sophie Kaner
Yes.
Cap Blackard
And that is a craft that I love very much. And I’d love to hear your take on it. And your, I don’t know pearls of wisdom or methodology that you really love about about coaxing those performances from your players?
Sophie Kaner
I love doing it so much. I think rehearsal is really important. I think one of the biggest things that I’ve learned over time as a director is that like, it’s about picking your battles.
Cap Blackard
Mm hmm.
Sophie Kaner
And so like, I work with different actors very, very differently. And I think I get better at working with each actor as I get to know them. Because some people like even if they’re doing something that you don’t love, you can’t just stop them and give them the note in the moment because it will make their performance worse, because they’ll get so like stressed out about it. So that’s actually not always the best thing you can do. And so like part of directing is getting to know the actors and knowing how to direct them. and like some people you like really, really, really need to pump them up. Like the best way to get good performance out of them is to be like, You’re So Amazing, like, everything we’re doing is fantastic. Could you just do this thing a little bit more? Uh, amazing and like, that’s how you get the best performance out of them. And some people are very cerebral and they like have a lot of questions and they want a lot of notes. And then one thing that is really a wonderful, beautiful thing is that when you work with one person doing the same role for so long, I mean, you know, Joshua’s been playing Juno for like, three, three years now. And like, I don’t direct to it, I certainly don’t direct like his voice almost at all because he just, he just is Juno. Right? So like, I don’t need to say that much about it. And I might talk to him more about like, the emotion in a particular moment or like, volume, he’s very mumbly like, he doesn’t project his voice ever. So like that’s a note that I give them a lot but um, but it is different for different people. I like to when I have new people come on, I like to usually start out with a reference point like, can you do Katharine Hepburn? You know, like, it’s not gonna sound exactly like that when they do it, but it will sound like something and it will sound really distinctive.
Cap Blackard
I mean, all the most memorable cartoon voices are an imitation done poorly.
Sophie Kaner
Yeah, absolutely. Like, actually. And I think that Kevin and I both use cartoons as a reference point a lot.
Cap Blackard
I mean, it’s, it’s the the craft of cartoon voice work is so very specific, and it requires so much nuance for something so bombastic.
Sophie Kaner
Yeah.
Cap Blackard
So yeah, that’s what kind of environment do you record in?
Sophie Kaner
So we now work at a recording studio when we started. I mean, for years we recorded in my in Kevin’s dining room, which is like a nightmare because it’s like really echoey. So like, I had to do a lot of work to compensate for that. We now work at a recording studio, which is like across the street from here, actually. It’s called the bridge and now we have an actual sound engineer who like, you know, deals with the levels and everything and oh my god, it’s so nice. It’s so worth it. And that means that I can like focus on actually directing and working with the actors and stuff. So we now have people as much as possible in like, separate booths.
Cap Blackard
Amazing.
Sophie Kaner
It’s so nice because what I used to have to do is like, I would have to, like you would hear bleed over in other mics and so I would have to like, while one person was talking, and I was like editing and while one person was talking, I’d have to like, mute the other like, it was insane. Like, can you imagine how long it takes? Like every single line of dialogue you have to like mute everybody else, like it just wasted just hours I’ll never get back. And I don’t have to do that anymore because people are just recording separately. And then I can do all the effects later in post. Fantastic.
Cap Blackard
Yeah. There’s, my number one question that I want to ask is I just want to know everything about Rita and the person who plays Rita?
Sophie Kaner
Rita, we love Rita. Rita is played by Kate Jones, who was also somebody that I went to UMass with. And also went to like Elementary and high school, or high school with Noah Simes. So they’ve like been friends since forever, which is like, very charming. And, yeah, she’s, I mean, she’s also been really interesting to work with because like now she’s just been Rita us since forever. And she can just like, like, she does have to do that to like, get into the voice. So like, you know, everyone’s almost laughing because we’re just like getting ready to start. And she’ll be like *screeches*. Until shes in the voice, and fun fact I think I’ve said this before in various commentaries and things if you guys listen to those, but like, back when we were doing the original Murderous Mask, and I was I only had like, I think five of us who were going to be acting in it, and I was trying to sort out the roles and I, originally I was gonna play Rita, which was very different and less good. But I think I was trying to sort out between Rita, Sasha Wire, the Kanagawa twins, and Min Kanagawa, and somehow I had to sort those out between me and Kate. So there were like, many different ways that could have gone, but I am very happy with how it turned out.
Cap Blackard
Yeah, no kidding. Yeah, like, even the first episode, Rita’s like, kind of subdued read as an archetype, but by the second episode, like as soon as that horse drawing happens.
Sophie Kaner
Haha, yes!
Cap Blackard
I just like, What on earth? Like this, I immediately knew that this character was was so like, wholly original and its own thing. And I’ve just I’ve been skipping around in the series I have, just like, I don’t know, I don’t know when the last time I’ve been. I’ve been taken aback in a good way by a character in something is.
Sophie Kaner
Well, she I mean, you’re absolutely right. She starts out as an archetype, because we were like, okay, so we have the new our detective, so he needs to have like the secretary. And that’s why she doesn’t have a last name. Right. Right. You know, the secretary, Rita. And we just decided to sort of stick with that. And then in the second episode, we ran into the problem of right in the first episode, Juno is with Rex Glass the whole time, so we have somebody to talk to. So of course, an audio drama, you always have this problem of how do you make sure people are talking so that you know what’s going on at all times? And so we were like, shit, Juno needs to like go around by himself. What are we going to do to like, make it clear what’s happening? And Kevin came up with the idea of, okay, well, he has a secretary Rita, she’ll be like, his eye in the sky. And then that necessitated her being like very tech savvy, which then like, over time, built up into her just being like a super genius hacker, you know, but like still keeping that like noir secretary thing, but also she’s kind of like a child from Miyazaki movie.
Cap Blackard
I did not make that comparison, but it is apt.
Sophie Kaner
That’s always how I think. In Totoro, if you guys ahve ever seen Totora. She’s May, right? Like a little screaming line. So like, I always think of her as that. I guess Judo was the older sister.Yeah. So she has many influences.
Cap Blackard
Yeah. So we’re about halfway through. I would love to open up for questions. If any of you have a burning inquiries regarding Penumbra?
Audience Member
one of my friends asked me to ask you if Juno wears crocs?
Sophie Kaner
The questions– Somebody asked me the other day about crop tops too. Like, does Juno wear crop tops? Yeah, so because you’re asking me and not Joshua. The answer is No! He doesn’t wear crocks. If you’re if you’re asking Joshua, you’d get a very different answer.
Cap Blackard
I’m curious why. Why is that question a thing?
Sophie Kaner
Would also love to know,
Audience Member
My friend’s nickname is crocs. And I think she just, I was like, Oh, I’m gonna go to this podcast festival, and Sophie Kaner is gonna be there. And her first instinct was ask if Juno wears crocs?
Sophie Kaner
Well, you gotta know, it is an important question. I’m honestly surprised you didn’t start with that.
Cap Blackard
Always letting myself and others down.
Sophie Kaner
But we’ll let it slide this one time. But you know what it’s an audio drama. You can envision it however you want to. Yeah.
Audience Member
So I’ve noticed, especially in the most recent episodes that there’s a lot of focus on how romantic relationships function when both people have their own stuff going on. And we saw a little bit of that with Buddy in Rust part two. So how do you when approaching those characters and directing them? How do you direct the actors when they’re part of a couple, but they also still need to maintain their own personalities?
Sophie Kaner
Uh, Interesting. Um, I mean oh, wait, you know, the question did not actually end up going exactly where I thought it was going to go. Can you try me one more time?
Audience Member
I mean, when you’re directing actors that are part of a couple, like the characters are couples,
Sophie Kaner
Yes.
Audience Member
But they’re all, but they also both have their own individual journeys and are over crossing in certain moments. How do you direct them so that both the intimacy of their relationship and their own personal trajectories are coming through in their performance?
Sophie Kaner
Well, I mean, I think that like, as with real people, right, people behave a certain way on their own and then they behave a certain way with other people and certainly a specific way when they’re in a partnership with somebody. And so you kind of have to figure out like what, what is their thing? You know, as a couple and so I know, oh Noah’s here, I’m gonna call him it out. Um, but, you because I’m thinking of like Juno and Nureyev and like, their thing as I think we settled on and it wasn’t just, I think that it was this happened and then I noticed it and then would direct for it in the future, was that like, their thing ended up being their banter and like very quick banter, right? And so like, a thing about Juno and Nureyev, right when they’re together is this like, very quick back and forth. And so like, whenever the three of us sort of landed on that, at some point, it meant that every time we return to them, you know, seem together and be like, do the Juno and Nureyev back and forth quick, I need you to pick up the pace like I wanna, you know, I want it to almost be overlapping, and they will like often sort of escalate an emotion together and so I think in that way, a lot of times, it’s, let’s see what the actors naturally do like what kind of chemistry they naturally have, and then see what clicks and what feels like, Oh, this is what this couple does. This is what they’re like when they’re together. And then that means that we now have shorthands. You know, I can be like, can you do the Judo and Nureyev if thing you know the thing, and they will know what I mean? In the same way that, you know, if I’m directing just Joshua, and I’ll say, you know, the thing Juno, you know, does when he like, he knows what I mean. So like, we end up building a language and that holds true when the actor is being the character on their own or when they’re creating chemistry with somebody else. Does that answer the question? Yes.
Cap Blackard
Any other questions?
Audience Member
Did you make your necklace yourself?
Sophie Kaner
Hahaha! No, I wish I was that talented. No, this was from the last live show that we just did a couple months ago. And I had it commissioned from a local artist and I was, I did in the back of my mind, Noah’s so mad, but in the back of my mind I was like, and also I may like wear this sometime. But it belongs to the company. I’m not gonna do anything bad to it. Great question.
Cap Blackard
Now, there’s the last Juno Steel story ended on quite the precipice-
Sophie Kaner
Was everyone caught up?
Cap Blackard
Oh, yes, yes dangerous.
Audience Member
I’m not.
Sophie Kaner
Okay.
Cap Blackard
Then I guess we won’t do anything because it is a doozy.
Sophie Kaner
And it’s like, very spoilery, I guess. Yes, um. Okay.
Cap Blackard
When, when is when is the next season beginning?
Sophie Kaner
Season three starts on Tuesday. For Patreon supporters it’s already the first episode has already come out for everybody eles it’s out on Tuesday.
Cap Blackard
Is there anything you can say about it spoiler free that would like that, sort of, I don’t know primed the trajectory of like where it’s headed and what you what you are aspiring towards with, with this storyline moving forward?
Sophie Kaner
In this season, with both series, not just Juno, Kevin and I really tried to stick to one of our core principles as a team, which is like don’t be afraid to really switch things up. Because
Audience Member
I’m a patron so I’ve listened to the episode. I’m not spoiling anything, but I’m following-
Sophie Kaner
Yeah, so like it’s it’s very important to us like it. When you have a long running show it can be so tempting to just like stick to the same thing because that’s that’s what people love, right? If you have people who love the show, they love the exact thing you’ve been doing. So it’s very scary to be like, let’s throw that all away and do something completely different because they might not come with you. But I, it’s so important to me. I hate to see a show get stale. I hate to see a show where like, the show runners are afraid to let the characters develop in a new direction. Like I think a good example, I don’t know if anyone ever watched House. But that was a show that I loved so much at the beginning and then became an incredibly stale for me because they were so unwilling to let the main character do something different, like, because they had gotten so far with him just being, you know, like sort of misanthropic and like, hating everybody and being like, cranky all the time and like, and depressed and like not really going somewhere new with his life, like they were very afraid to actually have him develop and go somewhere new with his life. So like, character wise, that’s very important to us. And I hope that will be evident in the new season, but also structurally, I mean, if you have listened to the end of season two, you already know that like, there’s a big change up in like, where we’re going from here. But even beyond that, like structurally changing things around is really important to us. And it’s the same in Second Citadel like when you get to season three of that you’re going to see big changes there as well. And I know like it’s it’s hard for us and I know it can be hard for the audience because you expect a certain thing and you fall in love with a certain way of telling stories and the characters the way they are, but like, I think it’s important to change it as much as you can and then uh and then get out before like it’s, it’s gotten into a rut.
Cap Blackard
Well, the What have you noticed in, in terms of the fan base and like clue, there’s a there’s a big strong Juno focus. And Second Citadel is also there and it’s also a very strong show. How is your dedicated fan base responded to this other very disparate program?
Sophie Kaner
Um, I think that the majority of people are kind of there for Juno. I think that increasingly there are people like there are now some people I think, who only listened to Second Citadel, which is really, really cool and surprising to me. And I think it’s definitely, it might have to do with how long you’ve been listening to the show. Like if you’ve been listening to it for quite a while you’re more likely to be a Juno fan. Newer listeners, I think It’s easier to onboard to Second Citadel. It doesn’t take nearly as long to hit its stride. And it’s it’s just easier listening I think at least at first. And also because Juno can be really complicated like, like the plots are incredibly complex. This is very embarrassing, but the other day I was like, Kevin, who wrote, You’re next Juno Steel, on the wall. And had to like explain it to me, like from Muderous Mask and I couldn’t remember. Because they are very complicated and like, we spend so much time just like trying to untangle logistical knots. So like, I think it can be hard to onboard people into Juno it can be easier to get into Second Citadel, but but as I mentioned earlier, like we try to make them complimentary. And like if you, you know, we try to make it so like okay, if Juno is feeling really grim right now, like maybe Second Citadel’s a little bit more upbeat. And maybe if like, Second Citadel is getting a little bit rough then like, you know, maybe it’s an easier episode if Juno.
Cap Blackard
That’s a really good symbiotic relationship to have in your own your own feed. I mean, like, I feel like for a lot of folks, the answer would have been well, let’s just do separate feeds and so on. But since you started as an anthology, there’s that drive to-
Sophie Kaner
Yeah
Cap Blackard
Compartmentalize it and I, I get it’s it’s great that it’s been, you know, it’s been strong for you and not like something. Have you have you ever second guessed it?
Sophie Kaner
Um, yeah, because it’s like, annoying as shit.
Cap Blackard
Yeah.
Sophie Kaner
And yeah, and like I I also, I don’t actually know, but I imagine it can be frustrating as a listener like, like, are you are you fucking serious? Like you’re gonna do a Juno three parter right now and like, now I have to wait who knows how long until the next Second Citadel episode, like are you kidding me? Like that seems very annoying. And I worry about that a lot. But I think that we would break up our fan base in a way that would not be very functional. If we put them ever feeds honestly financially I think it would be really bad for us to like split it in that way. And I think that it just like it gives a sense of momentum and like I think there’s something nice about the fact that the cast’s of the two shows are like there’s a ton of overlap there. Yeah, you kind of recognize voices. So I think that’s a nice thing.
Cap Blackard
What are some of your favorite and least favorite fantasy tropes?
Sophie Kaner
Fantasy tropes…
Cap Blackard
That you have or haven’t explored, explored in Second Citadel?
Sophie Kaner
Um, fantasy tropes? Well, I mean, like we very much did like Beauty and the Beast. Which I do love and is also something though that like I think some people have definitely taken issue with and for those who have listened to like Moonlight Hermit specifically. I know you may not have not Yeah, okay. But it’s a very like Beauty and the Beast thing and I like will sometimes get the criticism that people give to Beauty in the Beast, which is this is not romance. This is Stockholm syndrome, which I actually don’t agree with. But–
Cap Blackard
It’s exceptional circumstances.
Sophie Kaner
Right? It’s like yeah, I’m not like promoting like be a monster kidnapping like soem like. You know like, I think we’re allowed to have some separation between fantasy and the real world and especially because in storytelling, you don’t want to literally do the same things that you want in real life because like, Okay, if you actually took the time it would take to, like, build a healthy relationship in real life. Like, we wouldn’t be here for years. You know, like, okay, but you want to develop a relationship in one episode, you need some shortcuts and you need the audience’s suspension of disbelief that like, they’re just meant for each other. You know what I mean? Like you don’t you don’t have the time for that shit. And so like, I do really love Beauty and the Beast and I loved like, sort of structuring a story on that trope. And like a lot, I mean, very closely even to the Disney movie, I think a lot of it like we we really would take parts of it and be like, okay, the snowball fight, like how are we going to do that in our shows that we like sort of have parallels? So that’s a fantasy thing that I like. I don’t know, um, I mean, I do like using, particularly monsters as like a metaphor for other things like a way to explore other things that people worry about. Or as a metaphor for dealing with different kinds of people.
Cap Blackard
Yeah.
Sophie Kaner
You know, and like, it could be racial or it could be about gender or it could be about sexuality, but like, I think that that’s such a fantasy thing is to, to use monsters as a stand in for something else, which I really enjoy.
Cap Blackard
Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Any more questions?
Audience Member
Do you think you’re gonna do any more of those, like mini horror stories?
Cap Blackard
Are you?
Sophie Kaner
Super unlikely. I will not say never. Because, you know, like, I think I’ve said this before, but like we do have and I won’t say when but like we do have an ending planned for the Juno series, and not for the Second Citadel series. So like one day, we’re gonna have to figure out what happens now with the feed. I actually don’t know.
Cap Blackard
Yeah.
Sophie Kaner
I think that Juno is likely to end before Second Citadel and we’re gonna have to figure out something to fill in the gap. So like, it could be like it could end up going back to horror. I don’t know. Not for right now. It’s like not on the table. Right? Now. But, question?
Audience Member
I’m just curious what the like creative processes for creating the episodes I remember there’s a voiceover you have about, you kept bugging Kevin: youv’e gotta put in the wedding dress, you’ve gotta put in the wedding dress.
Sophie Kaner
Yeah so the process is I bug Kevin. So it obviously has changed a lot over time because the process is different when you are coming up with something brand new than when you’re like revisiting the same characters and settings. So at this point we generally at the beginning of the season we have like a Kevin and I will like go get breakfast and like have a very very long breakfast where we like nail down the very basic shape of the season. You know, where do we in general wanna see, where are these characters starting from? Where do we want to see them get to? Are we introducing any characters? Are we like changing anything about the structure? And then from there, we’ll like break it down a little smaller. So we’ll take an episode and we’ll be like, okay, what, where we need to start ordering to end? What characters, are we going to need in this? Um, and then we will start to figure out an outline. One of the important things that we also try to do at some point in the outline is figure out like, what is the theme of the episode. And that ends up coming through in the writing increasingly as we go. So once we have an outline, I let him go free. So Kevin will draft the episode and then we’ll go through it together, I’ll be incredibly rude. And he’s he’s always super nice about it. Sometimes we fight about, you know, like plot points or character developments and stuff like that, but we’re not happy with it until like, we’re both happy with it. And then he’ll like do another draft. We have an editing team as well, a couple people that we send it to to take a look, we get notes from them. And then before we’re finished with the writing process, we actually have rehearsal, because we want to see like how it sounds when the actors you know, read through it, what it sounds like in their voices. A really wonderful thing is that once we’ve worked with actors for a long time, in the writing process, we can hear it in their voices, which is so cool. So yeah, then we then we rehearse, then it, like goes through another round of edits. And then we take feedback from the actors too like, if something felt crazy to them to say, or if they don’t think it really makes sense for their character. Like we’ll take that feedback too. Yeah, so like, there’s a lot of collaboration and a lot of give and take. And, you know, we work together on like, the macro and the micro version and like, so you know, I’ll bug him and stuff when it’s like, he’s working on the draft of something and I’ll just be like, this thing has to be in it. It has to. And I’ll like burst in and be like, you have to find a way and he’s like, I don’t want to do that. But then he does. Yeah, so like, I I never draft the episodes, but I often, like have details or character things that I think are really important.
Cap Blackard
Anyone else?
Sophie Kaner
Must be almost time, shortly?
Cap Blackard
We have about five minutes to change over. Yes, great. Perfect. Perfect, perfect. Let’s see./
Sophie Kaner
Don’t threaten me with eight minutes. I’ll eat it up.
Cap Blackard
Second Citadel has a lot of very strong characterization. When you’re looking, let’s, let me back that up a little bit. Okay, so your characterization that you have, but you’re talking about the impressions and working through that. What are some of your examples for, for whom the kinds of performances or characters that you’ve sourced to create your own characters?
Sophie Kaner
Uh, you mean like-
Cap Blackard
In terms of like, who like who are the correlations? Like, where does where does Juno’s voice come from? If you’re saying like, we’re creating an analogue originally.
Sophie Kaner
Sure
Cap Blackard
Like to find that voice.
Sophie Kaner
So we’ve totally talked about this before. And in fact, if anyone is a Patreon supporter, I think we actually talked about it again, pretty recently. When we started recording the Juno series, we always talked about the Juno voice existing on the Groucho Marx to Batman scale. Because that’s like kind of the spectrum of how Juno talks like sometimes he’ll just be like wisecracking and sometimes he’s like, Oh, I’m really depressed. So like,
Cap Blackard
That’s wild.
Sophie Kaner
Yeah. And so you can like you can be like, oh, could you do more Groucho or Batman? And again, as I’ve said, since then, like he just sort of knows the Juno voice now and so I don’t give him really reference points anymore because it just, he knows tge voice. But, um, so I mean I know like sometimes there are reference points that I give the actor sometimes they’re ones that the actors come up with I know that Kate always talks about is it- Tina,Tina Belcher? Linda?
Audience Member
Linda
Sophie Kaner
Linda Belcher? Because I obviously don’t watch Bob’s Burgers, so I know that that’s her that was like her starting reference point for Rita but but I think like it was kind of become it’s own thing.
Cap Blackard
Wow I kind of get it but like it’s so like, I I want to hear an interpretation of Harley Quinn done by her I can’t even imagine–
Sophie Kaner
Yeah!
Cap Blackard
Someone more perfect to take Batman down.
Sophie Kaner
Yeah, totally. Yeah, Harley is very like relevant there, right? Because we were like, Can you just like do some sort of like a fake New York like acccent? Oh, like don’t try to do a real one just do like a fake New York accent. And that’s sort of how Rita talks and then, I mean, so Buddy is very directly Katharine Hepburn. And We were just like, Sarah can just do just do Katherine Hepburn. And I think she does a very good job. I, I don’t act on the show a ton, especially these days, but when I do especially because I find that I don’t have a ton of versatility in my voice. I do try to very specifically imitate people to try to get my voice to sound as different as I possibly can. There was one episode where I was like, trying to do my best Marilyn Monroe, which is, I think that’s it’s the second read a minute. And sometimes like four bit voices, I’ll be like, Okay, I’m just gonna do Allen Rickman and Reese Witherspoon. And like, it doesn’t sound like that when it comes out of me.
Cap Blackard
Perfect, great!
Sophie Kaner
But at least they sound different from each other.
Cap Blackard
Yes.
Sophie Kaner
Yeah, I don’t know. So sometimes it’s like it’s very or I think I’ve given people like Humphrey Bogart before. And Philip Seymour Hoffman, Cate Blanchett just like, you know, strong voices to imitate.
Cap Blackard
Yeah.
Sophie Kaner
It won’t come out sounding like that. And that’s fine.
Cap Blackard
Yeah. Precisely. Perfect. Unless we have any additional questions, I think. I think now we shall we’ll wrap it. Is there anything that they should know? Going forward about? So, new new episodes Tuesday, right?
Sophie Kaner
Yes. Coming out Tuesday. And yeah, like it’ll, it’ll be different, but I hope you’ll come along. And thanks for being here.
Cap Blackard
It’ll still definitely be good. I’m gonna catch up and then I’m gonna move forward and I cannot I cannot wait to see what the hell’s gonna happen.
Sophie Kaner
Yeah, different stuff.
Cap Blackard
Yeah different good stuff.
Sophie Kaner
We’ll see.
Cap Blackard
Thank you so much, Sophie.
Sophie Kaner
Yeah, thank you. Thank you guys so much for coming.
Cap Blackard
Now if y’all want to follow me, you’re more than welcome to. I’m gonna go up to the Hephaestus room, I’m gonna do a panel called writing for improvisation called living in the moment. Where we’ll share a bunch of strange techniques for coaching or coaxing, very intense performances out of actors.
